LGBT themes

[fangirlishness]

After the marathon, I saw a few tumblr posts from people about Cassandra being queer, and it made me think about LGBT themes on the Librarians in general. Off the top of my head, I can come up with two:



1. Cassandra

Cassandra is obviously shown as queer. It took me a while to notice, but it's very clear in the last episode. John Rogers hinted at it on his blog, and once you look for it, it's really obvious:

- Cassandra is Prince Charming and all the women (including Eve) are attracted to her in Fables
- alt!Cassandra / Eve is hinted at
- alt!Cassandra and Lamia is implied


None of them are in-your-face, and some people have complained that they'd have liked it to be more obvious. I liked it as it was, but the more I think about it, they really could have been a bit more decisive.

In the movie verse, the Librarian has a romantic relationship with his Guardian, and Flynn/Eve is established in the pilot already. The rule is continued in Loom of Fate where Jake/Eve and Cassandra/Eve are mentioned. Although you could argue that Ezekiel is an exception, so maybe this is not a rule to be always applied.

I personally think the writers did have that rule in mind and choosing a female librarian in the first place already makes it a conscious decision on their part.

Okay, so Cassandra to me is obviously not straight, and I would consider it text, not just subtext. I really like that there's a canonically queer character on the show.

The second thing I realized this week:


2. Jake and his love for art is a really good example for someone who lives in the closet.

I'm not saying he is portrayed as queer. There is ample evidence to the contrary (Lamia, his flirting with the employees in Horns of a Dilemma, Mabel, ...).

It's a metaphor.

- he loves art, it is very important to him and he defines himself through it, but he cannot share that with anyone from his life/his family, etc.
- in that sense, he has developed the typical behaviors of someone who has to hide a big part of themselves: he is subdued, doesn't open up easily, doesn't trust people. His pained smile says so much.
- now that he's got people to share his love with, we can see how good it is for him not to have to hide.

I like this interpretation. It adds another level on which to identify with him.



What do you think?

Comments

[dhampyresa]

I really wish Cassandra being queer was more explicit and I'd never thought of Jake's love of art that way, but it makes sense.

[fangirlishness]

I mean, I appreciate that they conveived her that way, but really it doesn't help all that much if the writer assures us in his blog that that was his intention, if he isn't showing it in canon.

I'm not saying alt!Cassandra should have kissed Eve like Jake did, that's definitely not her style. I don't even know how I would have done it differently. I guess there are definitely worse examples on other shows, where they just hint and tease and never admit. This feels different, it feels honest. And I hope they'll use the next chance they get to disambiguate it.

[greyathena]

I remember people being kind of up in arms about this when it aired. I'm on board with AltCassandra not kissing Eve because every scene had to be different from the others or it wouldn't have been funny - also, Eve actually seemed *more* shocked (imo) by Cassandra being sort of sly and insinuating than she would have been by being kissed.

I personally didn't think it was subtle at all (or rather, I felt that if it was meant to be subtle, then the show runners need to have a talk with Lindy Booth), but agree that if Cassandra is meant to be queer, there should be something more overt said in the second season. One season of hints and insinuations is fine, but then just go ahead and say something. I have hopes for Rogers because of his years of mocking Rizzoli & Isles for having fake lesbians (i.e just enough to lure in the LGBT audience but never actually real).

But then like I said, when people were complaining that the AltCassandra/Eve thing was all subtext, I was like "I rewound it twice and I'm pretty sure that was *text*. Seriously watch their faces again."

[fangirlishness]

every scene had to be different from the others

Exactly.

Eve actually seemed *more* shocked (imo) by Cassandra being sort of sly

Hee. True.

I personally didn't think it was subtle at all
"I rewound it twice and I'm pretty sure that was *text*. Seriously watch their faces again."

I agree. For me, this constitutes text.

But I have been bitten one too many times by Supernatural.

SPN heaped on the Destiel implications in season 8, some of which were similar to what Cassandra said to Eve and I did interpret them as text. But they are easy to take back and say "oh no, that's not at all what we meant".

As I said, the Librarians are different, and I would never compare them (unfavorably) to SPN. John Rogers has been pretty obvious about it, and explicitly said that "oh yes, that's exactly what we meant", so I guess the case is different. So far, I trust him to do the right thing with it.

[dhampyresa]

I've high hopes for Cassandra's queerness to be made explicit in future.

[cassandracillianlife]

Jake is a very closed of character for the most part, and I can totally see where you might think that! Personally I saw Cassandra as queer from the Prince charming ep on, and the finale clinched it for me. It's not in your face but if you're looking, it's there!

As for Ezekiel being an exception, he was a teenager when he became Librarian in that timeline. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[cassandracillianlife]

And the more I think about it, the more I think they're both in the closet.

Jake's defensive: "Cassandra's Prince Charming!" when Eve mentions he's the Woodsmen (hyper-masculine/macho = overcompensation?)

Cassandras shy little "You're the one having a good hair day," to Eve at the beginning of the ep... I don't think Cassandra's out yet either.

As a contrast, I like to look at alt!Cassandra. The thing I loved about her new timeline was how secure and confident she was in it. She clearly knows what she's doing and isn't afraid to issue orders. Her dealings with Eve are different there too.

Eve: "Don't tell me I'm like your mother,"
Cassandra is amused and has a little smirk. "No, nothing like that."

Also, when Eve questions all the magic she's fond. "You never did approve." The little talk she has with Flynn about Eve dying for him interesting too.

I think Alt!Cassandra was definitely more open with herself than canon is.

Sorry if I'm blathering, but this is interesting to me!

[fangirlishness]

Blathering is expressly allowed. *G*

I don't think Cassandra's out yet either.

Cool. I didn't really think about that before.

I guess it depends a lot on when her cancer was diagnosed. I imagine that after that, she was more concerned with death than with her sexuality. If she got diagnosed really early, before puberty, she might not even have thought about it much at all, and it's less of a suppression and more complete unawareness.

I like that idea. This is the first time she's doing anything at all that doesn't have to do with her illness, possibilities are opening up, and she's just blooming.

Also, maybe she trusted Lamia more than she should have because she feels something between them, something she isn't aware of, but Lamia probably is.

While I'm at it... why was Cassandra cleaning at the hospital in the pilot? That is something I never really questioned, but... she was an only child, so she probably had the full support of her parents (or maybe they died?). You'd think that with her maths talent, she'd go to university or something. (Take the loan and hope to die. *ouch*)) As it is, she never seems to have gotten out of that hospital.

[greyathena]

In the STEM fair episode, she tells Ezekiel that she left school when she got her diagnosis, doesn't she? (And then her parents threw out her trophies). The way she talks about them, I always felt like her parents just sort of assumed her life was over right then even though she wasn't actually dying yet. I've been figuring she never finished high school (or maybe she got a GED or something), and that getting whatever job she could without a degree was her way of being independent rather than living with her parents and constantly dealing with their crushed dreams.

It also seems semi-possible that her parents at least would not have encouraged her to do any complicated or advanced math study on the grounds that it would cause her to have seizures.

I have a surprising amount of head canon about Cassandra.

[fangirlishness]

Ah, okay, thank you! That explains the missing degree.

her way of being independent rather than living with her parents and constantly dealing with their crushed dreams.

All of Cassandra's backstory is so incredibly sad. :(

It also seems semi-possible that her parents at least would not have encouraged her to do any complicated or advanced math study on the grounds that it would cause her to have seizures.

That sounds plausible. Although she gets seizures whenever she uses her brain, which she can't really avoid anywhere. Not going to school would minimize it, though, I guess.

Omg, more sad ideas. Imagine someone like her trying to dull down everything around her so that she doesn't have to use her brain at all. (I think she didn't succeed in that too well, luckily, judging from how quick-thinking she still is.)

I have a surprising amount of head canon about Cassandra.

I see! I'm all ears.

[greyathena]

Well, a lot of it I'm saving for my Leverage crossover fic which will one day happen. For reasons. :)

I do keep forgetting that Cassandra isn't (we think, right?) Lindy Booth's age, but a lot closer to Ezekiel's. I think we know that because she says in the pilot that she was in the hospital when she got her letter, and (since her tumor isn't progressing or making her sick, per se) it seems reasonable to assume that was when she was first diagnosed? At 15? But then everyone talks about Ezekiel being just a teenager when he got the letter, and Cassandra wouldn't actually have been any different. Huh.

I'm going to just tell myself that was a relapse or something ten years ago and she is actually marginally older than Ezekiel, because otherwise AltEve has some explaining to do.

[fangirlishness]

Cassandra isn't (we think, right?) Lindy Booth's age, but a lot closer to Ezekiel's

Yes, I would say that is the case. But...

since her tumor isn't progressing or making her sick, per se) it seems reasonable to assume that was when she was first diagnosed? At 15?

Okay, true, maybe, but. I had never assumed that it was the first time she was in the hospital - don't ask me why, it was just an unfounded assumption. But there are a lot of reasons why she could have been in the hospital on and off. If the tumor isn't growing, there's no reason to believe she would die at all, so I guess it must be growing. So she would have had to go back to get it checked regularly. Or maybe it was suggested she had it taken out (and then they didn't) but they would have subjected her to tests?

Or, maybe she did have seizures. Those can lead to nasty injuries.

So I do feel a little bit of confidence in my gut instinct.

I don't think parents would react this strongly at 15. The bond with her parents would have been a lot stronger when she was younger. Throwing out her trophies just sounds... younger. She might have thrown out her trophies at 15 herself, if she was feeling pressured by her parents, tumor or no.

She also says that the last time she was really happy was when she was balancing her father's checkbook in her head. Doing that at 15 is not all that impressive. (Or did that quote reference her parents' expectations of her more than her tumor detroying her life? I don't remember. I should definitely get that rewatch done sometime...)

I'm going to just tell myself that was a relapse or something ten years ago and she is actually marginally older than Ezekiel, because otherwise AltEve has some explaining to do.

Same thing, really. Okay, they may have been 15 when they were called and when they first met Eve, but the ep never actually states when exactly Eve was killed in their timeline. If we assume Dulac happened when he happened in the "real" universe, that means they had almost ten years together. So... okay, of course Cassandra (and Ezekiel) are a lot younger than Eve, but they are definitely adults after around half that time.

I would not hold that against Eve. Especially not with alt!Cassandra being as self-confident as she seemed. I still think the Library chooses the Guardian to be (romantically/sexually) compatible to the Librarian. In Ezekiel's case, it was more a form of motherly love, apparently. But I would not have been surprised either if they'd implied a romantic relationship between him and Eve.

That said, I do think Cassandra is a little older than Ezekiel, but definitely no more than 5 years.

[cassandracillianlife]

I like your idea better! That's a very good possibility, since she was diagnosed so young she may have just decided not to bother with attraction to anyone at all. Maybe that's what's holding her back now. Both her and Ezekiel are far more reserved in their affections than the others.

As for her working at the hospital, it's strongly implied she split from her parents in later episodes. Maybe she didn't want to do that debt of college or put herself under the stress. Maybe she just wanted to live life while she could. I have a headcanon that she chose the hospital so she could help people out while the doctors couldn't, like with that one lady. Also, the health benefits are probably pretty good. *shrug*

[fangirlishness]

Both her and Ezekiel are far more reserved in their affections than the others.

Hmmm. They all have hang-ups about connecting to others. Which is why I love them all so much. :D

Eve is a woman in a leadership position in a male-dominated field.

Ezekiel, I suspect, has had a really hard childhood and was traumatized early so now he doesn't trust anyone but himself.

Jake is so afraid of having this secret that he can't connect to anyone either. Although he is a very family-type person, so he still tries, and the Library has opened up that possibility for him, so, yeah, Jake is a bit different.

Flynn is a nerd who likes to be surrounded by books and whose best friend is a sword. He didn't want any of the LITs or Eve around at first. His affection for them has grown quickly, though, so I guess he really is the exception.

Ezekiel

[masalaoflife]

Since the topic is LGBT themes, I'm just gonna put this here:

The season 2 premier made me think whether Ezekiel could be gay (or aroace). I don't know why, but his "You don't even know my league" to Jake made me think if his "league" could actually be men. Also the way he absolutely had no interest in the Italian chick (blahblahblah *earrings* :D) and has never really shown any interest in women (pls correct me if I'm wrong and forgot a scene) makes me wonder if he's either gay or asexual/aromantic.

Re: Ezekiel

[fangirlishness]

I haven't seen any indication for him being attracted to anyone or even looking at anyone in an interested way, so I wouldn't really want to call him gay just yet, but ace sounds very plausible to me.

The "you don't know my league" quote suggests he does have a league, so... that still leaves some ace possibilities.

Yes, I like it!

Re: Ezekiel

[we_protect_each_other]

Maybe just reiterating stuff I just said in my longer reply to parent Ezekiel comment, but I just wanted to reply to this one, too. Any excuse to talk about Ezekiel.

The show likes to point out that Ezekiel is the youngest. Of all of them, he is the only one who broke the Librarian/Guardian romantic relationship in-universe trope in his alt!timeline. The fact that he was just a teenager when he came to be the Librarian probably is a really good reason for this, but I also think it might be a personality thing as to why he's never shown explicit on-screen romantic interest in anyone.

Ezekiel seems to have this weird blend of respect for other people and disdain/indifference toward them. On the one hand, he is totally self-absorbed and loves to amuse himself at others' expense. But on the other, none of his crimes seem to be malicious, and he would much, much, much rather evade than fight. He doesn't seem how to hurt anyone in unnecessary ways, especially when he stands to gain nothing. This coupled with being very young (and having been working on his skills as a thief since he was 'just a kid' such that those skills were already developed enough to make him remarkable to the Library ten years ago) might provide some insight.

While I don't think he's morally above it in his own estimation, I think the fact that it would seem that simple pragmatism would place him in a position of thus far only having really had love-'em and leave-'em sorts of opportunities with any potential lovers might kind of explain his disinterest? It's not that I think he's a delicate one who'd never recover from this, but it also seems like the kind of emotional messiness that he is aware of that he doesn't tend to inflict upon people unless it's beneficial to him. He was willing to appeal to the Italian lady's sense of her own attractiveness, but he didn't seem interested in taking advantage of that fact beyond his direct endgame goal (the earrings).

Another thing to note is that in And the Horns of a Dilemma, he makes the comment "Good luck finding fourteen virgins these days." It does not necessarily mean that he isn't a virgin, but I would tend to think that someone like Ezekiel would only say something like that from within the realm of his own personal experience. He often seems to only be able to view things through his own point of view to a great extent. His ability to forgive Cassandra for her betrayal so easily was based on the fact that he understood it from his own perspective. Then in my other comment I mentioned him saying to Jake "You could be dating... [pause] whoever it is backwards country people think is hot." This in comparison to "If I was in your shoes," seems to kind of frame the scope of his ability to empathize. He doesn't seem to filter things through "how would I feel if I were you" but rather "how would I feel if I were in your set of circumstances." So, I don't think he'd mention non-virgins like that unless he was one? But that's not to say that people don't sometimes have sex for reasons other than real desire, which might even correlate with my above babble.

Re: Ezekiel

[we_protect_each_other]

I love the idea that Ezekiel isn't straight, but he did one time mention being interested in a girl? And it's in passing, too, so I don't think that it would be the type of thing where he would be like "Oh yes, totally interested in that girl back there. Did you see me? Girl."

And I would hate to think that he'd feel compelled to do that. First of all, because I don't think any of the other characters would care if he were gay. Also, in the last episode he made the point that he doesn't actually really lie?

But anyway, what I'm referring to is that in And the Heart of Darkness, he is doing a lot of complaining for the others to turn back and not go toward the creepy house. In the course of this, he mentions something about them having been at a bar (I think) before and that he had been talking to a "bird" there whom he had thought things were going well with before they had to leave.

Would totally be happy if the "league" comment had anything to do with being attracted to men (sometimes?) or something, though.

I also tend to think that even if he falls along ace or aro spectrum that if it's the case he doesn't entirely lack sexual or romantic attraction (one or the other) because, again, in And the Heart of Darkness when he is trying to convince Jake and Eve that they should "keep" the house, he says something about that Jake could be dating "whoever it is backwards country people think is hot."

That's not to say that ace or aro people don't acknowledge that others experience attraction. It's hard not to in the world we live in. But I just never got the sense that he was reaching that much based on those particular grounds, because it seemed like he was trying to come up with an example but then decided that he and Jake probably had such markedly different tastes that he couldn't think of a relevant one. But it did seem to indicate to me that maybe he thinks someone is hot? Again, in same episode where he mentioned talking to a girl wherever they had just been.

I promise I'm not trying to take away non-straight headcanon for Ezekiel! I just am offering what I remember that might add to thoughts.

But I think that with regard to his no interest in the Italian woman thing, it might have something to do with the marked age difference and the fact that "*earrings* :D". Specifically with the age difference, I can't help but notice that the woman (while absolutely beautiful) was visibly older than him. And even though I don't take it that there's a tremendous age gap between Cassandra and Ezekiel, Cassandra was okay with having a romantic relationship with Eve from some point it seems, but Ezekiel took to her as a mother-figure person. I don't think that in-universe, character-wise this is anything inherent about age gaps considering the two, but personality. This also comes into play with how Cassandra reacted to the Italian woman in And the Drowned Book, too.

Discussion of romance and sex aside, Ezekiel seems to have a serious case of magpie with regard to the things he likes to steal, and he also is a very good thief in most cases. Being a good thief requires focus. Being a free thief also involves not sticking around the scene of the theft too long, typically, too. So I just wonder if it's a case of him traveling fairly light most of the time and not really interesting himself in things that are beyond the jobs he chooses to do. He seems unattached, even in nonromatic ways, in a way that I think makes him much more easily take to the team dynamic (in an interpersonal way) than the others who have kinds of baggage I think that he actually kind of has certain vulnerabilities for never having acquired.

Taking his passing commenting in And the Heart of Darkness and the way he seemed confused and sort of hurt (in spite of his obvious lack of personal interest in her) when the Italian lady wasn't interested into consideration, I think that Ezekiel believes himself to have some game as it were. Whether it's just for the purposes of conning people or not, I think that he clearly thinks of himself as being charming. He also knows how at the very least to engage people and in empathy, even though he doesn't make a huge habit of it.

I think the boys talking about whose "league" the Italian lady was in kind of makes more of a point about male/female versus female/female dynamics, though. Like, regardless of who is actually into whom, they're standing there arguing about this as a matter of self image. Meanwhile, she gets bored and vanishes on Ezekiel. Then, when he finds her with Cassandra, Cassandra has captured her interest and is mutually flirting with her with absolute grace and ease. Cassandra was genuinely engaging her about a topic, rather than trying to play smooth, and I think that makes all the difference in that scene, regardless of underlying motives of either person. I think Ezekiel's (and to some extent Jake's) inability to pick his jaw up off the floor following that scene just kind of shows this kind of communication issue that has something to do with gender dynamics in general.

Re: Ezekiel

[fangirlishness]

All very good points, and I had forgotten about his self-proclaimed "game" from season one, and concur that this definitely sounds like he's experiencing attraction. You argued that really well.

Flynn

[we_protect_each_other]

This may come off more as a joke than I mean it to. I definitely don't mean it as a joke, even though I find it hilarious. But I just noticed one particular line in the season premiere, and I can't help but think it was a motormouth stealth confession to being bi on Flynn's part.

When he is making his official acquaintance with Moriarty and is under the impression that he is Holmes, he says (rather hysterically, as one does): "I love you. I mean, I love your adventures. I love Eve Baird."

I think that this is definitely, obviously, hugely significant in terms of him processing his feelings for Eve. But I think that it also could be interpreted as him kind of "down-boy"-ing himself in a way? I couldn't help but hear it that way. Like, basically that he is faced with this sudden and acute fantasy-realization infatuation based on being totally enamored with Sherlock Holmes. All his dreams are coming true and he loves him. ... But, he is in love at this time, and best not jeopardize that more than their interpersonal rough edges already do.

Re: Flynn (this thread contains spoilers for 2x01)

[fangirlishness]

Aaaaah, so here is where I jump in with thoughts about my favorite character. :D

And my favorite thing in that whole episode.

I mentioned this in passing here in this other comment on 2x01 (spoilers for 2x01!).

For me, Flynn's confession to "Sherlock" doesn't really tie into gender and sexuality as much as it's a problem of worlds colliding. And a fourth wall thing, too, because Flynn is us (and Moriarty is Flynn).

Sherlock is a fictional character, and it's so normal for us to say we love them, but we mean something completely different with that than when we say that about real, existing persons. It's a fannish infatuation (that may or may not have sexual components), but it's something you're definitely not supposed to say to your idol's face.

I realize that a lot of people have problems with this already, telling the actor from the character, and throwing underwear on stage, etc., so it may not be this significant for other people. But for me, this was eye-opening. The whole "fictionals" theme is so good because it forces us to think about where the lines are - how do we act in fannish spaces and around fictional characters as opposed to real persons? What's allowed and what's taboo? What is fantasy and what are we comfortable acting out?

I hesitate to ascribe sexual components to all kinds of fannish excitement, and I wouldn't, in this case. There's so much about fannish love - identification, wish fulfillment, dreams of adventures - that has to do with the fan's own person more than possible partners. I think Flynn wants to be Sherlock much more than he is attracted to him.

But let's say Flynn's infatuation with Sherlock has a sexual component, to what does that translate on the Kinsey scale? Would he be attracted to men in real life? I don't know. He got sidetracked by the fact that he's already in love with Eve, so I don't think we'll ever know.

But I love thinking about the difference it makes whether the object of his (our) affection is fictional or real, and this is by far my favorite thing about this season.

Ezekiel / Cassandra

[(Anonymous)]

I know it's been a few years, but would love to know people's updated opinions;

Cassandra in S3 E8 "And the Eternal Question"
I think queer, is a good word to use.


Ezekiel in S3 E7 "And the Curse of Cindy",
what do people still think about the ace or aro idea? I think he's very young and still immature, but not aro.